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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT / SUJET:
PUBLIC HEARING ON
THIRD LANGUAGE AND ETHNIC PROGRAMMING /
AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE SUR
LA PROGRAMMATION MULTILINGUE ET À CARACTÈRE ETHNIQUE
TENUE À: HELD AT:
Bureau régional du CRTC à Halifax Halifax Regional Office
Édifice Banque de commerce Bank of Commerce Bldg.
Bureau 1007 Suite 1007
Halifax (Nouvelle-Écosse) Halifax, Nova Scotia
Le 1er février 1999 February 1, 1999
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
Canadian Radio-television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Public Hearing / Audience publique
Third Language and Ethnic Programming /
Programmation multilingue et à caractère ethnique
BEFORE / DEVANT:
David Colville Chairperson / Président
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Brien Rodger Secretary / Secrétaire
Geoff Batstone / Legal Counsel /
Dylan Jones Conseillers juridiques
TENUE À: HELD AT:
Bureau régional du CRTC à Halifax Halifax Regional Office
Édifice Banque de commerce Bank of Commerce Bldg.
Bureau 1007 Suite 1007
Halifax (Nouvelle-Écosse) Halifax, Nova Scotia
Le 1er février 1999 February 1, 1999
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
ii
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE
Presentation by / Présentation par:
Ismail Zayid, President
Arab Canadian Association of the Atlantic Provinces 5
Fiona York
Director, National Campus Radio Association 10
Juan Carlos Canales-Leyton
Centre for Diverse Visible Cultures 20
Arlene Van Leeuwen
Metropolitan Immigrant Settlement Association 22
tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668
1
1 Halifax, Nova Scotia / (Nouvelle-Écosse)
2 --- Upon commencing on Monday, February 1, 1999
3 at 1600 / L'audience débute le lundi 1er février
4 1999 à 1600
5 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Just for the record,
6 my name is David Colville. I'm Vice-Chair,
7 Telecommunications, for the CRTC and the Regional
8 Commissioner for the Atlantic Region.
9 2 We are holding these consultations
10 for the next few days here and in Montreal, Vancouver,
11 Toronto and Winnipeg, and I guess you have just heard
12 from Dylan and Geoff that there were 60 to 70 folks
13 appearing in Vancouver and I think there are probably
14 upwards of 100 or so in Toronto. We are going to be
15 receiving written comments and accepting mail
16 submissions as well on these issues, and all the
17 submissions, both oral and written, are going to form
18 part of the record.
19 3 We started a process of reviewing all
20 of our broadcasting policies, two years ago, with
21 reviewing our policy for commercial radio and we are
22 currently nearing the end of the process of reviewing
23 our policies respecting private television in Canada.
24 We are also wanting to review the policies as they
25 relate to community and campus stations and ethnic
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1 broadcasting as well.
2 4 So this particular consultation is to
3 help the CRTC examine our policies and regulations that
4 originally were established in 1985, when a
5 broadcasting policy reflecting Canada's cultural and
6 linguistic diversity was issued. One of the most
7 important goals of this policy is to ensure that the
8 Canadian Broadcasting System serves the needs and
9 interests of all Canadians by reflecting their
10 ethnocultural diversity in an effective manner.
11 5 Since this policy was issued,
12 Canada's demographic profile has changed
13 considerably -- one might say dramatically, I
14 suppose -- in the last 10 years or so, and the amount
15 of third language and ethnic programming available in
16 the Canadian Broadcasting System has increased
17 substantially, although I suppose, from the perspective
18 of somebody living in Halifax, that may not be as
19 noticeable as it might be in some other parts of the
20 country.
21 6 So by looking into these issues
22 around ethnic broadcasting, we are asking:
23 7 Are the goals of the current policy
24 still valid and is the policy still effective in
25 attaining these goals?
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1 8 I guess following out of that is:
2 9 How better might we develop a policy
3 that reflects the multicultural nature of the country?
4 10 So we put out a Public Notice, late
5 last year, 1998-135, which set out a series of
6 questions and invited comments in response. This
7 series of consultations was set up across the country
8 to provide an opportunity for various groups and
9 individuals to come forward to the Commission and
10 present your views. So we welcome your participation
11 here today and we are interested in hearing your views.
12 11 Perhaps we could just sort of
13 informally open this up, since there is a relatively
14 small group here today, to a discussion of the issues.
15 12 As we have already indicated on the
16 phone, we have Geoff Batstone, who is our Legal Counsel
17 for the Commission for this proceeding, and here is
18 Brien Rodger. On the phone also is Dylan Jones as we
19 indicated. Dylan is also a lawyer with our Legal
20 Branch but he has been kind of heading up the staff
21 sort of policy analysis of this issue.
22 13 Brien Rodger is here from our
23 Regional Office -- a Director of our Regional Office
24 who will be the Secretary for this afternoon. Although
25 normally we get quite formal in some of these
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1 proceedings and have the Secretary formally call people
2 forward to the podium, I think we will treat this
3 rather informally today.
4 14 So just as I have finished my opening
5 remarks, it looks like Fiona has arrived.
6 15 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: You have to
7 repeat them now.
8 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
9 17 You must be Fiona.
10 18 MS YORK: Yes.
11 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Welcome, Fiona.
12 20 I just finished giving my opening
13 comments and Juan Carlos has just suggested that I am
14 going to have to do it all over again. But I'm not.
15 21 I just wanted to say we are going to
16 try and keep this as informal as we can. We just want
17 to provide an opportunity for parties to present their
18 views on the issue and then perhaps we can, given the
19 small nature of the group we have here today, we could
20 open it up to a discussion, if you wish.
21 22 We are transcribing this, so we do
22 have microphones around the table. So just try and
23 make sure you are speaking into a microphone whenever
24 you are speaking so that we can have a record of what
25 has gone on here today.
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1 23 So I think, with that, we will turn
2 it over -- I don't know whether you have sort of formal
3 presentations you wish to make.
4 24 DR. ZAYID: I have prepared a brief
5 statement.
6 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Okay.
7 26 DR. ZAYID: Is that acceptable?
8 27 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh yes, absolutely.
9 So perhaps then, we can turn to you, Dr. Ismail Zayid.
10 You are representing the Arab Canadian Association --
11 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
12 28 DR. ZAYID: The Arab Canadian
13 Association of the Atlantic Provinces. This is a brief
14 on behalf of the Arab Canadian Association of the
15 Atlantic Provinces.
16 29 Ladies and gentlemen, Arab Canadians
17 like myself who immigrated to Canada came to this
18 country with pride and enthusiasm. Canada, to us,
19 represented a vision of a liberal country where we
20 could bring up our families free from oppression and
21 discrimination.
22 30 Twenty years ago, I spoke before a
23 CRTC gathering like this and documented a long factual
24 catalogue of bias and discrimination in our media that
25 was hurtful to our society and to Canada's good name
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1 and reputation.
2 31 Today, twenty years later, I am happy
3 to stand before you and say that the picture is
4 brighter but, alas, not without failings and blemishes.
5 32 Before delving into that area, I want
6 to say that the Arab community in our country is
7 significantly larger today and happier and we are proud
8 to continue to participate and contribute to Canada's
9 multicultural ethos. We are a proud people with a
10 unique historic civilization based on accepting from
11 and offering to others ideas and values.
12 33 We would like to preserve this
13 heritage in our children and, hence, we would like
14 access to communicate elements of our culture, history
15 and language through broadcasting media to our people.
16 34 The human being, in his relationship
17 to others, is a composite picture of varied reactions.
18 These reactions are usually integrated in the basis of
19 images and associations. Such associations are often
20 based on casually perceived impressions, which can be
21 crystallized as pleasant or unpleasant with varying
22 degrees of intensity depending on repetition and
23 susceptibility.
24 35 It is unquestionable that the young
25 are the most susceptible and impressionable. It is
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1 also an established fact that the visual image has the
2 greatest impact. Television, through the use of this
3 visual medium and repetition, has the most telling
4 effect on the audience, especially the children.
5 36 It is in the light of this that the
6 image of the Arab in the Canadian and U.S. media
7 becomes significant and, unfortunately, sinister. Let
8 me briefly outline only a few examples of this negative
9 image.
10 37 Today, and for decades, the Arab
11 people in the Middle East have become victims of
12 foreign occupation and, yet, these people who resist
13 this occupation are often referred to as terrorists.
14 Yet, the people who murder them, bomb their schools and
15 whatever are often called commandos or extremists but
16 never referred to as terrorists, while the Lebanese or
17 the Palestinian who is resisting an illegal occupation
18 is often referred to in the media as a terrorist.
19 38 An Israeli settler, for example, of
20 the kind of Baruch Goldstein who massacred 29
21 Palestinians during their prayer at the Ibrahimi Mosque
22 in Hebron was described as an ultranationalist. The
23 English language clearly begs for forgiveness.
24 39 On the 26th of April 1998, the CBC
25 held a "Cross Country Check-up" program on the occasion
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1 of Israel celebrating its 50th anniversary of its
2 creation. I called in and got through and I was asked
3 my opinion. I indicated that this celebration was at
4 the cost of the massive injustice committed against the
5 Palestinian people who were evicted from their homes
6 and 418 of their towns and villages were demolished and
7 remain to this day as refugees, while Israel continues
8 to defy international law. I was told that they would
9 call me back. The call never came.
10 40 I wrote, on the 27th of April 1998,
11 to Mr. Rex Murphy detailing this and asked why can't
12 there be a "Cross Country check-up" program on the 50th
13 anniversary of the ethnic cleansing and dispossession
14 of the Palestinian people? No reply was received.
15 41 There is currently, in circulation, a
16 Hollywood movie, "The Siege", depicting the terrorist
17 threat waged by none other but Muslims.
18 42 The Globe and Mail, a few days ago
19 only, on January 26th, I think -- you may want to see
20 that -- sums up the offensive racist stereotyping of
21 the Arabs and the Muslims in the TV media. It quotes
22 John Larroquette telling the CBS President: "The
23 moment you tell me I can't slap the small brown guy, I
24 would have to go." In the sitcom "Payne", Mo (short
25 for Mohammad) features the inept bumbling waiter, the
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1 butt of the hotelkeeper's abuse. Thus and in so many
2 similar situations, the Arab and the Muslim is the
3 object of ridicule and amusement.
4 43 In The Globe and Mail, it says here:
5 "But if there was a Muslim lobby monitoring U.S. TV,
6 they clearly don't have much influence." Why should a
7 vaguely Arabic character be the instinctive fallback
8 position when cheap laughs are the goal? The port of
9 the fez or whatever it is reflects the Muslim and the
10 Arab for ridicule.
11 44 On January 14, 1999 -- that's only a
12 few weeks ago -- the CTV program "Double Exposure"
13 mimicked Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi President, about
14 making chemical weapons, with a screen-size
15 intelligible page of "The Quran" -- which is the Muslim
16 Holy Book -- depicted as the manual for home-making of
17 biological weapons.
18 45 Ladies and gentlemen, this is
19 extremely offensive and repugnant and insults Islam, a
20 religion of peace and tolerance for 1.2 billion Muslims
21 throughout the world and hundreds of thousands of
22 citizens in this country.
23 46 We reject this offensive stereotyping
24 and call on all decent and self-respecting Canadians to
25 stand with us against this offensive characterization
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1 and stereotyping of our culture and our faith.
2 47 Thank you.
3 48 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Dr. Zayid.
4 49 I think maybe what we will do rather
5 than -- I had a few questions I wanted to pose in the
6 context of our policy but I think rather than do that,
7 I invite each of you to make your comments and then
8 maybe we can open it up for a bit of a discussion.
9 50 Juan Carlos.
10 51 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: (Off mic...)
11 52 THE CHAIRMAN: Fiona.
12 53 MS YORK: Okay. So I can just go
13 ahead and do my presentation?
14 54 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
15 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16 55 MS YORK: It's not a formal written
17 report but I have some remarks that I have prepared.
18 56 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Go ahead.
19 57 MS YORK: Before I came, I don't know
20 if you had a chance to explain my position here -- if I
21 should just introduce my background.
22 58 THE CHAIRMAN: Maybe, for the record,
23 if you do that now.
24 59 MS YORK: Okay. I'm here both to
25 represent the NCRA, which is the National Campus
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1 Community Radio Association. I'm the Director on the
2 Board of the NCRA. So we are trying to have people
3 from the different regions who are members of the Board
4 attend the consultations to represent the Board as a
5 whole.
6 60 I am also the Station Manager of CKDU
7 here in Halifax, which is the Campus Community Station.
8 So I'm also partly -- I'm sort of thinking of CKDU in
9 my remarks. So I am representing both the NCRA and
10 CKDU in what I am talking about here.
11 61 I had about five different points
12 which may not all pertain to the comments in the
13 position paper that has been drawn up so far but I
14 think some do tie into the things that have been put
15 forward already.
16 62 One is that we feel that the
17 definitions that are currently given for what is
18 considered ethnic programming -- there are five types,
19 a) to e), that are given in the Glossary. I know that
20 the Glossary is considered sort of out of date and
21 there may be changes that are happening to that, but I
22 have gone through our programming on CKDU and
23 calculated what I consider to be ethnic programming
24 according to definitions. Our program directory is
25 also done.
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1 63 There was also a representative from
2 the CRTC who called me, just sort of surveying the
3 stations about a week ago. She had done the
4 calculation and all of our numbers were different. So
5 I think that, although when you read through them it
6 does look fairly clear, I think there is definitely
7 some need to clarify the definitions.
8 64 I would also say that the tie into
9 the question of the importance of the following
10 programming areas, I think that if there was going to
11 be any changes to the types of programming that are
12 considered ethnic or if any of the types were to be
13 changed or cut out, I would emphasize a) and b), which
14 means programming directed specifically to
15 ethnocultural groups, and b), programming directed
16 specifically to ethnocultural groups which pertain more
17 to their experience in Canada.
18 65 I think those would be the two areas
19 that I would emphasize and I think those are the two
20 that we tend to have more need for. We seem to have
21 more requests for that type of programming. So I would
22 say that that seems to be more important.
23 66 I should also mention -- CKCU in
24 Ottawa and CHRY in North York, Toronto, so I can kind
25 of represent a little bit of what I have seen at the
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1 other stations. So I think I would emphasize those
2 areas and I think there needs to be some clarity in
3 definitions.
4 67 The other point is that we feel
5 that -- the NCRA as a whole feels that, right now, the
6 maximum for a station that is not considered an ethnic
7 broadcasting station is 15 per cent out of the
8 programming week -- can fall under the five types of
9 ethnic broadcasting. There is a provision that if we
10 want to go higher, we can go up to 40 per cent if we
11 get authorization from the CRTC.
12 68 We feel strongly that it should be a
13 higher maximum than 15 per cent and that the
14 authorization process should be much easier because we
15 do have because we do have -- right now, I know that we
16 have had requests that have come into CKDU for more
17 ethnic programming. We have had to turn down requests
18 and I think that is a really big problem.
19 69 I think it's partly because of the
20 lack of the definition because when I had calculated, I
21 had some under 15 per cent. So I don't think that we
22 are at 15 per cent. I think we could have accepted
23 those shows but because of the lack of clarity, the
24 shows are being turned down, and because of the 15 per
25 cent maximum, the shows are being turned down.
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1 70 Those shows don't have access to any
2 other station in Halifax. There's no way that those
3 people who are making proposals would get any
4 programming anywhere else. So it's absolutely
5 essential for us to be able to have the room to accept
6 those shows.
7 71 Now, I know that there is the
8 authorization process but I think that, just given the
9 nature of the CRTC and the need for a Campus Community
10 Radio, even if it's written into the Glossary that you
11 can apply for special authorizations, 99 per cent of
12 campus community stations will not do that just because
13 there is this intimidation factor for the CRTC.
14 72 They think that -- although it's
15 written in there, they wouldn't think to ask. They
16 wouldn't think they can get it. They would think it
17 was really difficult, you know, like a five-page
18 document like our licence renewals are, where it may be
19 as simple as just writing a letter and explaining their
20 position. But stations just won't do that because they
21 are often intimidated by a process like that and
22 because it's not spelled out clearly.
23 73 So I would say, definitely, to raise
24 the maximum and to make the authorization process a lot
25 more transparent and a lot simpler for campus community
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1 stations.
2 74 Another area -- actually, I want to
3 go back to the clarity of the definitions. I think, as
4 a whole, we are not particularly comfortable with the
5 term "ethnic programming". "Ethnic" can apply to any
6 programs. It could be the people who are third- or
7 fourth-generation Canadian. That's an ethnicity as
8 well and it is inappropriate to call programs, when you
9 are talking about a different culture "ethnic". I just
10 am not comfortable with that term. So I would suggest
11 trying to just change the definition as a whole.
12 75 The third point is, on the shows now
13 that fall under the five categories of ethnic
14 programming, there is a lower Can Con expectation.
15 Instead of the 30 per cent that we have on all the
16 other shows, it's 7 per cent for, I think, shows
17 that -- I know that I have talked many times to the
18 programmers that we have on CKDU and I know that all of
19 them have a lot of trouble reaching that 7 per cent.
20 76 With some, it's not very difficult
21 because if the group has been here for a while, there
22 may be Arabic Canadians living in Halifax who have
23 produced something that is available on cassette that
24 they can play. But a lot of people -- like I know on
25 our Polish program, the person who hosts it plays --
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1 it's not even relevant to his show. He has to just
2 pick some other music to play to fit into the Can Con.
3 77 So 7 per cent, although it is lower
4 than other areas, I think it's still difficult. So
5 there should be some extra provisions in there.
6 78 I don't know if it can be lowered to
7 0 or -- I'm not sure what to propose but I think that
8 there should be some way of providing an exception or
9 some way of lowering that just to make it easier
10 because it seems that that is a recurring problem for
11 people doing the shows. Even when they are thinking of
12 putting a proposal in, they might say, "Oh, but I have
13 to play it with Canadian Content. I don't think I can
14 do this." So it's often almost putting people off from
15 doing the shows.
16 79 I would also say -- this is sort of
17 more relevant to CKDU -- that there should be
18 provisions for regional exceptions because, in our case
19 at CKDU, there couldn't be an across-the-board increase
20 in the maximum. Instead of saying, increasing 15 per
21 cent across the country, which I think would be ideal,
22 I think there should definitely be at least regional
23 exceptions where stations in a community like in
24 Halifax -- we're almost the only station east of
25 Montreal that broadcasts any ethnic programming at all.
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1 80 There are a few other campus
2 community stations here. There's CHSR in Fredericton.
3 There's a couple of others in the area but they are all
4 sort of in our same circumstances. There is definitely
5 none other in the Halifax area that do any programming.
6 81 So I would think, definitely in a
7 situation like this, we should have an allowance to go
8 higher than 15 per cent just because no other stations
9 are doing it and there obviously is a need.
10 82 They would follow with other CRTC
11 policies like where -- I believe that if a community
12 station is applying for a licence in a market where
13 there is no other local programming, commercial or
14 otherwise, if the process was a little bit easier for
15 them. So I think the same thing should be considered
16 where we are providing ethnic programming in a region
17 where no one else is doing that.
18 83 I also had a couple of comments
19 pertaining to the remarks, in the document, that have
20 been put out. The question about the importance of
21 third language ethnic programming relative to the
22 importance of ethnic programming in French or English,
23 I would say, definitely, third language programming is
24 more important. So that would be the simple answer for
25 me for that question.
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1 84 For number 6, there's a question
2 about comparing how the policies should differ between
3 campus and community stations, for example, and
4 commercial stations. I would say here, although we do
5 feel it's very important and what I have been saying so
6 far is we want to have the right to do more ethnic
7 programming, we think it's something that we do as a
8 station, it's totally part of our mandate and it's
9 something that we would do regardless.
10 85 There is a number of areas of things
11 that the CRTC has set out as part of their mandate for
12 radio and television in Canada where we find that
13 campus community stations are taking on the bulk of the
14 responsibility, like things like local talent
15 development or local programming and multicultural
16 programming where a lot of commercial stations just
17 don't do that and we are taking on a lot of
18 responsibility. This seems, to me, to be another area
19 where we are doing more.
20 86 It's not that we don't want to do
21 more. We think that it's very important, but in answer
22 to the question about how the different programming
23 services should be changed to fulfil the needs of the
24 CRTC's multicultural policies, I think that there
25 should be provisions where commercial stations do have
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1 to take on a little bit more responsibility.
2 87 There are some shows that we have on
3 CKDU where they may be more appropriate on a commercial
4 station. There may be people who would be happier in a
5 more commercial format and there may be people who
6 would be happy on a community station.
7 88 So they have the choice, like any
8 other programmer, to go on whichever station they feel
9 is more appropriate to them. Right now, that doesn't
10 really happen. So I think that there should just be
11 some mechanism to increase the responsibility for other
12 stations as well.
13 89 Just one other thing that is relevant
14 to CKDU: in terms of the programming we have, we do
15 have now -- just to give an idea of the types of
16 programming we have -- we have four Arabic shows on
17 right now and they are extremely popular. Last year
18 around this time, we set aside a full day and did focus
19 programming that started at 10 a.m. and went on until
20 midnight. That was all on Arabic issues. Most of it
21 was in English. Some of it was in Arabic. We are
22 doing the same thing again this year.
23 90 Last year during the day, they had
24 about 200 phone calls coming in of people just happy
25 with the programming. I, unfortunately, don't have the
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1 statistics or the source for this information but at
2 the time we were putting together this show, there was
3 a press release that was written by the groups that
4 were coordinating the programming and they had said
5 that Arabic is the second most spoken language in Nova
6 Scotia.
7 91 So it's just something where we think
8 there is obviously this huge need -- there is a huge
9 response. It's very important and we are able to
10 fulfil it but we just think it should be acknowledged
11 that we are taking on this responsibility and have the
12 mechanisms to increase our ability to do this and to
13 have other stations taking on the responsibility as
14 well.
15 92 THE CHAIRMAN: Thanks, Fiona. You
16 got a lot of comments out of that little square piece
17 of paper. That's good.
18 --- Laughter / Rires
19 93 THE CHAIRMAN: Juan Carlos.
20 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
21 94 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: My name is Juan
22 Carlos Canales-Leyton and I represent the Centre for
23 Diverse Visible Cultures, a relatively new organization
24 of direct membership that concerns itself with the
25 issues of the non-native ethnic minorities in this
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1 area. By that, I mean non-Blacks, non-Whites and
2 non-Indian natives -- basically, immigrants of colour.
3 95 We have not had the opportunity of
4 reading the document that you are making comments from.
5 So I heard that around the 4th is the deadline. We
6 would appreciate having a copy so we can make a formal
7 extension of our small presentation here today.
8 96 Presentation to the CRTC on the
9 Licensing Process for Ethnic Media and that tells you
10 how focused we were. We just thought of the process to
11 license new outlets rather than dealing with the
12 existing ones but, of course, we make big comments on
13 the other ones as well later on.
14 97 At the Centre for Diverse Visible
15 Cultures of Nova Scotia, CDVC, we believe in full
16 participation by the members of the different
17 minorities that compose our ethnic fabric, in all the
18 activities, programs and policy-making processes that
19 will eventually affect them.
20 98 Based on the above premise, we
21 respectfully submit the following MUSTS for an
22 inclusive and responsible licensing process to any and
23 all ethnic media under the CRTC's jurisdiction:
24 99 a) Inclusiveness: Any licensing
25 process must include participation by the people who
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1 will end up being recipients of the products/services
2 being licensed to the successful applicant. This can
3 be achieved by direct invitation to groups such as
4 ours, who constantly look out for the betterment and
5 advancement of its constituents. We believe that a
6 managerial view and/or decision alone by the CRTC will
7 represent a concept of "for the people but without the
8 people".
9 100 b) Participation: Licensing should
10 include the obligation/commitment by the licensees to
11 allocate a percentage of their air time (one third
12 across the board, for example) to the development of
13 community-based programming. As well, there should be
14 a constant search and promotion, in partnership with
15 local community-based groups such as ours, of media
16 (would-be) personalities and/or other talents
17 (artistic, editorial, et cetera) from within the
18 minority ethnic communities.
19 101 Thank you for the opportunity to
20 present our views here today and for your attention to
21 this presentation.
22 102 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
23 103 Arlene, did you want to make any
24 comments at this time?
25 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
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1 104 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Sure.
2 105 I work at MISA, Metropolitan
3 Immigrant Settlement Association. I'm speaking on
4 behalf of my co-workers. We are a staff of 25, the
5 majority of whom are refugees and immigrants. We
6 provide settlement services for newcomers. So we
7 really spend our days up to our elbows in very
8 practical survival issues. We are not media critics
9 and we also did not refer to the document that Fiona is
10 reading from.
11 106 So the comments that I am going to
12 make represent the views of newcomers to Canada and how
13 they perceive the content of Canadian broadcasting.
14 107 First of all, we are aware of what a
15 very powerful tool the media is for acculturation,
16 specifically television because of the fact that it is
17 visual. For those who still are having difficulties
18 with the language, it's the most accessible of the
19 media.
20 108 For people who find themselves, at
21 the beginning of the settlement process, quite
22 isolated, not having access to the family networks and
23 social networks that they enjoyed at home, they spend a
24 lot of time in the company of their televisions, and
25 particularly if they are unemployed or under-employed,
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1 the television is a very important source of
2 information -- sometimes erroneous information -- and
3 it's also a very useful instrument for learning the
4 language. People really appreciate the ability to read
5 in closed captioning narratives of the programming that
6 they see.
7 109 It's interesting -- I just would like
8 to relate a small anecdote that illustrates the kind of
9 conclusions that people may draw on the basis of what
10 they see on television.
11 110 I do a lot of home visits. We do
12 outreach as well as provide services at our street
13 address. I was visiting a young family, about three
14 years ago. They were refugees from the former
15 Yugoslavia and the young mother was spending a lot of
16 time at home. She had toddlers and she was pretty well
17 housebound. She had been in Canada for two months and
18 she was watching a lot of daytime TV, particularly talk
19 shows.
20 111 I was asking her, "What is your
21 impression of Canadian broadcasting? What is your
22 impression of Canada?" She said, "Arlene, are all
23 Canadians" -- and then she kind of searched for the
24 word and then she said -- "dysfunctional?"
25 --- Laughter / Rires
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1 112 MS VAN LEEUWEN: I'm sure that, in
2 Canada, we have our own unique brand of dysfunction but
3 she was basing so many of her conclusions about life in
4 her new culture on what she was seeing on television.
5 So there are all kinds of implications having to do
6 with Canadian Content there and many other things.
7 113 Anyway, at a staff meeting last week,
8 we tossed around these three statements -- or three
9 questions that the Commission is asking:
10 "To what extent does the present
11 broadcasting system adequately
12 serve Canada's ethnocultural
13 communities?"
14 114 People felt very strongly about news
15 coverage, in particular, and they had some very
16 practical suggestions. They were frustrated, as many
17 of us are, by the short attention span of the news
18 media. People who are from Central America are still
19 interested in what is happening in the reconstruction
20 work in Honduras, for example, and like so many issues,
21 it has dropped out of sight to make way for the most
22 recent disaster story.
23 115 So it's that kind of fickleness and
24 shifting focus of the media that frustrates people who
25 really want to keep in touch with what is happening in
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1 their countries. In general, there is a dearth of
2 international coverage unless it is of a catastrophic
3 nature: political atrocities, natural disasters, once
4 again.
5 116 They referred to what they called
6 western chauvinism in the coverage of, for example,
7 scientific breakthroughs, educational developments,
8 cultural events from other countries. It's not often
9 that we hear about things like that from other
10 countries beyond the west.
11 117 Someone from Nigeria, which is a
12 country that is truly multilingual, suggested that for
13 newcomers who are not yet literate in English, in
14 Nigeria, the public broadcasting corporation provides,
15 after the news, a verbal resume in the news in a
16 variety of perhaps eight different languages. They
17 were suggesting that this might be done in Canada as
18 well.
19 118 As a way of keeping in touch with
20 what is going on in their countries, people were saying
21 that the Internet now surpasses radio and television as
22 a tool for obtaining information.
23 119 THE CHAIRMAN: Mostly in English.
24 120 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Yes, yes.
25 121 The second question:
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1 "Given the demographic changes
2 that have taken place... how can
3 the needs and interests of
4 ethnocultural communities
5 continue to be served?"
6 122 I'm sorry -- the suggestion,
7 obviously, about the resume in various languages would
8 be a response to that second question.
9 123 They applaud the good work of the CBC
10 in its affirmative action hiring policies and they
11 encourage that such policies be strengthened and
12 conserved.
13 124 Also, there was the suggestion that,
14 similarly to the Canadian content quotas, perhaps there
15 could be an ethnocultural quota to programming -- a
16 very, very practical comment, once again -- on sports
17 coverage. The normal -- usually, sports coverage is
18 pretty well restricted to the three big North American
19 sports: football, baseball and hockey, and there are
20 people who would like to know about cricket and soccer
21 as well.
22 125 In response to the third question
23 about foreign product as opposed to Canadian product,
24 people stated that although they appreciate
25 ethnocultural programs that are produced in Canada,
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1 they would still like to be able to see programming
2 from their own countries so that they can monitor the
3 evolution of the first country culture.
4 126 They also -- I had a comment
5 specifically from a couple of African co-workers of
6 mine regarding American programming, particularly
7 sitcoms that feature African-American actors. They
8 were quick to say that one must not conclude that
9 simply because those programs feature African-American
10 actors that they at all address the concerns of African
11 immigrants or reflect the values of African immigrants.
12 127 Everyone seemed to agree that the
13 media was complicit in perpetuating stereotypes such
14 as -- and the example did come up of Middle Eastern
15 terrorists -- because of the short attention span and
16 lack of contextualization of news stories that
17 sometimes broadcasters end up perpetuating stereotypes
18 by not studying issues in more depth.
19 128 I apologize, again, for the informal
20 nature of these comments. We will consider, once we
21 have had an opportunity to peruse that document, if we
22 will accept your invitation to present something in
23 writing before March 4th.
24 129 THE CHAIRMAN: There is no need to
25 apologize for the informality. We appreciate your
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1 comments.
2 130 I'm just wondering whether any of the
3 others -- because a lot of those questions that you
4 mentioned and addressed, and the comments there were
5 obviously the questions that we posed in the press
6 release, but also questions that we broadly were
7 addressing in the Public Notice, although many of them
8 get a little more specific because they speak right to
9 the policies with respect to whether it's radio or
10 television and whatever.
11 131 I'm just wondering whether some of
12 the others might have comments on -- not so much on the
13 responses that Arlene made but on some of the different
14 issues that she raised.
15 132 Dr. Zayid, you mentioned a concern
16 about stereotyping in the media, particularly as it
17 addresses Arabs in the Middle East.
18 133 DR. ZAYID: Very much so. In fact,
19 this is what I was giving some examples of and I
20 appreciate my friend here reinforcing the statement.
21 There is no doubt about it that there is a tremendous
22 amount of stereotyping that goes on.
23 134 It's interesting -- you should read
24 this article in The Globe and Mail. I will leave you a
25 copy here.
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1 135 Literally, this says that now the
2 media dare not make mockery or fun of the Africans nor
3 the Hispanics. So then they will pick on the Arab and
4 the Muslim as a laughing stock. It gives a variety of
5 examples in this report of exactly that and this is
6 besides the point about also this question of
7 terrorism, which I stated. This is dreadful.
8 136 This goes on all the time, that Islam
9 and terrorism -- I have heard so many times, for
10 example, when Pakistan exploded the bomb, this was
11 called the Islamic bomb. Nobody ever says about the
12 Christian bomb or the Jewish bomb, no, but we have an
13 Islamic bomb. You must have heard this many times.
14 137 Islam is depicted in this fashion and
15 the Arab is -- as far as terrorism is concerned. This
16 is very offensive because the people who are involved
17 in this are people who are resisting occupation. Their
18 homes have been demolished.
19 138 I come from a village that had been
20 wiped out, completely demolished. To my shame, stands
21 today, in the ruins of my own village, what is called
22 Canada Park, paid with tax-deductible dollars -- my
23 dollars and your dollars and so on -- and nobody says
24 about this being terrorism. No, that's just Canada
25 Park.
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1 139 I have been speaking to the Prime
2 Minister of this country and I said, "It's a shame to
3 have Canada's name associated with an act of illegality
4 like this, to demolish whole villages. Three villages
5 are totally wiped out and people driven out, and build
6 a recreation centre called Canada Park with Canadian
7 tax-deductible dollars." But this goes unnoticed and
8 this is -- this stereotyping is offensive.
9 140 As I said, this example I gave about
10 "Double Exposure". You can laugh at Saddam Hussein and
11 do whatever -- shoot him for all I care -- but to
12 depict that Islam is the manual for making chemical
13 weapons is offensive in the extreme. I think this
14 should not be tolerated and I think this is what people
15 strongly object to.
16 141 THE CHAIRMAN: How do you think we --
17 I mean the collective "we", not just the Commission but
18 we the Commission, the communities you represent -- you
19 all represent here -- and the broadcasters. How do you
20 think we should deal with this problem to overcome
21 these sorts of stereotypes?
22 142 DR. ZAYID: Well, I think there ought
23 to be a conscious effort of educational value through
24 the media to eliminate this stereotyping --
25 offensive -- and also in the hierarchy of the
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1 broadcasting media, this should not be tolerated.
2 143 I was giving you this example of this
3 President of the CBC telling this fellow -- whatever
4 his name, John Larroquette, whatever his name is. He
5 was telling him that he must not depict -- the actual
6 original person involved in that story was a Hispanic
7 and his name was Manuel, but he said, "I can't have
8 Manuel -- a Hispanic actor." So he called him "Mo" for
9 Mohammad and he says, "That's a little brown guy which
10 you can slap around and I'm not going to be told not to
11 slap around the little brown guy."
12 144 There is obviously also a basic
13 fundamental educational process to go on and, at the
14 same time, the policy-makers should also be aware that
15 stereotyping is offensive and should not be accepted in
16 this country. As I said, literally, I, for one, came
17 to this country because I believe that this is a
18 liberal society -- small "l", mind you, society --
19 where I can bring up my children and so on. It was
20 hurtful.
21 145 Of course, I think we are better now
22 than 20 years ago. You weren't here but 20 years ago,
23 I spoke for everybody like this. There was a lot more
24 offensive stereotyping in our media than there are
25 today. So I'm a little happier but I'm not completely
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1 happy about the situation today.
2 146 THE CHAIRMAN: Juan Carlos, did you
3 have any comments on that?
4 147 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Well, if I may
5 just touch on a couple of points made by the other --
6 148 DR. ZAYID: I want to commend the
7 CKDU also for their programs. I think that is very
8 positive what the CKDU does in relation to the Arabic
9 programming.
10 149 I'm sorry about interrupted you.
11 150 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: That's quite all
12 right.
13 151 I think that of all the media in
14 Canada, the only true multicultural one is Vision TV
15 and, without any doubt, perhaps the best showcase of
16 any and all cultures that you will find in this
17 country, perhaps even in North America -- I don't know
18 about the States.
19 152 I wondered to which extent other
20 media outlets are relying on Vision doing their job for
21 them, not to do it themselves, when they should use
22 Vision as a source for production. I think that would
23 be a good work to do, to buy programming from Vision so
24 that they can show it themselves rather than from ABC
25 and NBC.
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1 153 A comment was made that CBC's
2 affirmative action hiring was a good thing and I'm sure
3 it is, but when I look at the photographs of my morning
4 broadcasters, I don't see any colour in the people
5 there. I don't know if that is by choice or just by
6 sheer coincidence. Just look at the photographs on the
7 promos and you will see there are no people from a race
8 other than white, and I think, in Canada, that is not
9 reflecting reality. You know that in Toronto --
10 154 THE CHAIRMAN: To be fair, I think we
11 have a few -- like Ian Hanomansingh, for example --
12 155 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: But he is not on
13 the morning photograph --
14 156 THE CHAIRMAN: No, but he started
15 here in Halifax a number of years ago. Then he gets
16 promoted and moves to Vancouver.
17 157 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I know. I have
18 noticed a lot of colouring, if you will, of the
19 broadcasters in CBC and the other people but that
20 strikes me in a very interesting manner, that here we
21 have your morning team, Brenda Starr(ph), Dave
22 Wright(ph), and all that. The first impression our
23 children will have is here are the people that bring
24 you the news.
25 158 Not long ago, CBC also brought in all
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1 the world -- all sorts of correspondents. There was
2 nobody for Latin America and they apologized for this
3 in the news. How many million people from Latin
4 America did not have a resident representative from the
5 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation? That was
6 outstanding, to me, particularly that I come from that
7 part of the world and I know interesting things happen
8 there.
9 159 Regarding sports, surely soccer would
10 be nice to see from places other than England and
11 Scotland and Germany which, again, it goes to the
12 anglo-saxon world. When you say western, I would
13 dispute that concept. It's not western civilization
14 that is portrayed, it's anglo-saxon and northern
15 civilization because the southern hemisphere of the
16 western world, which is where I come from, my culture
17 is not represented either. So it's not the western
18 world. It's the upper western world. So those are
19 basically the comments.
20 160 Regarding how it could change,
21 perhaps if you could look at the composition of your
22 board. Maybe the board ought to change. Maybe you
23 ought to bring more people that represent better the
24 fabric and the philosophies behind different races and
25 different peoples that are in Canada.
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1 161 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say "board",
2 you were looking at me but what you really mean is the
3 board of the broadcasters.
4 162 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: CRTC.
5 163 THE CHAIRMAN: All the CRTC.
6 164 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Because you
7 license.
8 165 THE CHAIRMAN: What about the boards
9 of the broadcasters?
10 166 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Surely, but they
11 are more commercial and I don't think that --
12 167 THE CHAIRMAN: CBC is not.
13 168 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Well, CBC is the
14 exception. Everybody else is a commercial outlet. How
15 can you dictate to commercial companies to bring more
16 directors from different ethnic backgrounds? I don't
17 think you can. Now, if you can do it, surely.
18 169 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we try and
19 encourage even the private commercial stations through
20 their licence agreements. We encourage these operators
21 to be more diverse in their management and the board.
22 170 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I used to
23 publish the only multicultural newspaper in this city
24 up until three years ago. One of the reasons why I had
25 to stop publishing it was because the advertising
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1 levels by the Government of Canada dropped completely.
2 It went below the bottom.
3 171 I think that any effort in assisting
4 ethnic programming or minority ethnic programming of
5 any kind, whether hosted at a major mainstream, if you
6 will, media outlet or at a specific ethnic minority
7 outlet, has to be supported by advertising dollars from
8 the government. There is no doubt in my mind that
9 without that support they will not get the rest coming
10 along. The government dollars will bring a level of
11 backing that is absent right now.
12 172 There is a newspaper that just
13 started. I think they have put three or four issues
14 out and I am concerned that the fellow might not make
15 it. He has four ads.
16 173 THE CHAIRMAN: Here in Halifax?
17 174 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Yes, here in
18 Halifax. I'm seeing him going through exactly the same
19 steps I went through a number of years ago.
20 175 Unfortunately, although I'm
21 apolitical, the levels of funding for advertising for
22 ethnic-based media dropped with this government. As of
23 93-94, the money went out. There is no more
24 advertising and I think that's important that it be
25 restored to previous to 1993 levels because it was a
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1 great support of all this concern.
2 176 So those, so far, are the comments I
3 can make.
4 177 THE CHAIRMAN: We have largely talked
5 about sort of the representation or the
6 characterization or even "stereotyping" -- to use the
7 word, I guess -- of various groups on conventional
8 radio and television stations. In their normal
9 programming, largely news and sports, we have talked
10 about, your comment about Vision is interesting in that
11 Vision is essentially licensed as a religious station
12 not a network station. It's interesting that you
13 should make the comment that you find that quite
14 valuable from an ethnic point of view.
15 178 I'm wondering what your views are on
16 the notion about programs on radio and television, the
17 sort of thing that Fiona was referring to that CKDU has
18 run -- that would be programming directed to various --
19 I'm having trouble with one term. You said we
20 shouldn't be using the term -- maybe for the sake of
21 this discussion, we can use that term until we come up
22 with something better.
23 179 I'm wondering what your views are in
24 terms of providing either on conventional, either
25 commercial or public or campus community stations,
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1 programming directed to various groups, whether it be
2 the Arab community or various other communities. What
3 is your view on that? Should we be trying to structure
4 the system to have more of that?
5 180 DR. ZAYID: I think so too. This is
6 the point I was making. Ny first point I was making is
7 that, in essence, I think it is an enrichment of our
8 multicultural ethos in this country to promote amongst
9 people pride in their heritage, in their language, in
10 their culture, in their history, and I think it is
11 perfectly appropriate for an opportunity through
12 broadcasting to be available for people to be directed
13 at them through other channels, through commercial
14 channels or whatever you call these channels. That
15 would be, I think, appropriate. In relation to the
16 Arab community, I think there is an attempt to do this
17 if it can be supported by the CRTC and the media.
18 181 MS VAN LEEUWEN: I think not only
19 programming that targets specific ethnic constituencies
20 but also programming like on CBC -- I'm thinking of
21 "Roots and Wings"(ph), the music program that has the
22 effect of kind of developing Canadian's general
23 cultural literacy. Newcomers really appreciate it when
24 mainstream Canadians know something about their
25 culture, obviously.
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1 182 So from the perspective of newcomers,
2 any kind of programming that informs and cultivates, in
3 mainstream Canadians, a taste of knowledge for
4 international culture, that's a good thing.
5 183 THE CHAIRMAN: What about programming
6 that -- and maybe this is what you were referring to --
7 that speaks back to them about -- in their own
8 language -- both their own culture --
9 184 DR. ZAYID: Yes, I'm not suggesting
10 to have this on a major CBC program but through special
11 channels -- a limited number of hours. I am not
12 suggesting a 24-hour program but a program directed --
13 pretty much like the CKDU does, narrate a program for
14 an hour or whatever it is. I think more of that and
15 perhaps on a wider context than the CKDU does.
16 185 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
17 186 Fiona, you mentioned that -- in
18 particular, you mentioned the Arabic programming that
19 you have done. Is that sort of a once-a-year...
20 187 MS YORK: No, we have four shows that
21 run weekly right now. The one that I was talking about
22 was a special day. Sometimes, we will take aside a day
23 and focus on a certain issue. So we did that for the
24 first time last year. There was a whole day set aside.
25 It was all talking about different Arabic issues.
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1 188 But we do have four shows that run on
2 a weekly basis that are -- one is two hours and the
3 others are an hour and a half each. So we have about
4 six hours of Arabic programming in total.
5 189 In answer to the question of whether
6 commercial stations should be encouraged to do ethnic
7 programming as well, I think that just thinking about
8 how much we are able to do on our tiny budget and our
9 really limited resources, just thinking about what the
10 programmers can do, I think, there's so much already on
11 CKDU, with the very little we have. If they had those
12 resources of another station, they would just be
13 incredible.
14 190 I think we are very lucky that we
15 just happen to have people who are really committed and
16 motivated and do excellent programming, regardless of
17 the limited resources, but if they had access to better
18 news sources or sports information or just so many
19 other things they can do, it would just be unlimited
20 how much better it could be -- the potential that there
21 could be and also just because we are only 50 watts.
22 It doesn't get very far. So there would be so much
23 more potential.
24 191 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: That's the
25 problem. I can never catch them. I hear all these
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1 good things about them and I can never listen to them.
2 I don't know if it's by licensing or just inherent
3 capacity of your station, but if they have such good
4 programming, they should be available to the rest of
5 the community at large. I think that adding three 0's
6 to your emissions at least -- just go for it, if you
7 can.
8 192 MS YORK: We're working on it.
9 193 MR. RODGER: Fiona, you mentioned
10 that 15 per cent is not enough. Have you thought about
11 what would be a reasonable level?
12 194 MS YORK: Well, I guess maybe if you
13 remove the two tiers, like now, it's 15 per cent and
14 then with authorization, up to 40 per cent. Maybe if
15 you just remove the special authorization and just say,
16 "up to 40 per cent", I think that might be better.
17 195 I don't want to speak on behalf of
18 the NCRA because we haven't really discussed it and I
19 don't want to put forward something and then maybe that
20 is not what we would agree on as a group. But I think
21 that would be more reasonable than 15.
22 196 THE CHAIRMAN: You are somewhat
23 familiar, obviously, with the radio business here in
24 Halifax, at least from sort of a non-profit point of
25 view, not that ethnic stations are necessarily
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1 non-profit but we have a market here that doesn't have
2 an ethnic station. What would your view be on whether
3 or not this market could support one?
4 197 MS YORK: I guess it would depend on
5 the type, like commercial or community, because then
6 there would be different needs and different budgeting.
7 198 I think that probably the market is
8 close to being able to support that type of station on
9 a smaller scale, perhaps like a smaller station or --
10 sometimes when community stations start, they are not
11 necessarily 24 hours, so perhaps on a more limited time
12 of day to start with and gradually increasing. But I
13 can see definitely the support for that. I think that
14 that could work.
15 199 THE CHAIRMAN: When you mentioned
16 earlier about the -- you have had to turn down some of
17 the requests for programming. How many different
18 cultural groups do you think that CKDU could do a good
19 job of serving in this community, if you had the
20 flexibility and the regulations to be able to do it?
21 200 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Are you speaking
22 of languages or cultures in the broader sense?
23 201 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes -- all of the
24 above.
25 202 MS YORK: Right now, there's 19
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1 hours, which is under 15 per cent, and that's maybe
2 like 12 to 15 shows. So if it was higher, it would be
3 like 30-35 different programs. Right now, there's some
4 overlap, like there's four Arabic shows, but if it was
5 one show per one group, then that would be 30-40
6 groups, I guess.
7 203 THE CHAIRMAN: Based on the kinds of
8 requests that you get, what do you expect you would
9 have?
10 204 MS YORK: If we did have a higher
11 limit?
12 205 THE CHAIRMAN: In terms of the number
13 of different groups.
14 206 MS YORK: It would go up gradually
15 and there are, obviously, other domains that we have to
16 sort of bring necessarily. It would all be -- each one
17 is considered case-by-case but I would say if there was
18 a change this year, there are probably three that we
19 would add this year.
20 207 THE CHAIRMAN: What would those three
21 be?
22 208 MS YORK: One was Chinese and -- I'm
23 not sure what the other ones were, I'm sorry.
24 209 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you want to make a
25 comment here, Juan Carlos?
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1 210 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Yes. I think
2 returning to the university radio but also with
3 community television --
4 211 But allow me to go back to your
5 previous statement that there is no commercial ethnic
6 radio stations available in town. I understand that
7 CHIN is available through cable, that whoever was to
8 buy a little adaptor can listen to CHIN radio station
9 through their cable connections -- and please don't
10 take this as a --
11 212 MS PARSONS: I know we service FM.
12 213 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Huh?
13 214 MS PARSONS: I know we have FM radio
14 stations but I don't know which exactly.
15 215 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: CHIN, yes. It
16 does come.
17 216 THE CHAIRMAN: Is CHIN one of the
18 CANCOM?
19 217 MR. RODGER: Yes, and as a matter of
20 fact, it's on -- I know it's on Expressview. I'm not
21 sure whether it's on Star Choice --
22 218 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I never heard
23 it. I'm sorry. My brother works there but he tells me
24 all these things. You can go and install this thing.
25 It costs you 50 cents. I can get you the programs on
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1 the Internet and you can determine when you can listen
2 to Spanish --
3 219 THE CHAIRMAN: The Internet is not on
4 the cable system?
5 220 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: No, the Internet
6 for the programming of CHIN radio. They have the
7 programming profiles on the Internet and then you can
8 find out when you can listen to your specific program.
9 221 But I go back a few years and there
10 were community programs -- and please don't take this
11 wrongly -- in Dartmouth for the Multicultural Council
12 of Halifax-Dartmouth. Eventually, there was an
13 apparent power struggle between staff at the cable
14 station and the people from the Multicultural Council
15 who were in charge of the production.
16 222 The clash came in the way of "I'm in
17 charge and I will put on whatever I decide." And that
18 is not a true community cooperation. So the end result
19 is there is no more Multicultural Council programming
20 to the level that it was 10 years ago. Yet, the
21 population is larger. The ethnic minority population
22 is larger.
23 223 So there was a -- that's why we
24 included this concept of any licensing tool of
25 programming should include participation by the groups
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1 that will be end users or listeners or viewers of any
2 of these programs -- hands-on. Otherwise, it cannot be
3 done for them without that -- in Toronto perhaps, maybe
4 in Vancouver, but here, no. Not here.
5 224 The local media does not have the
6 know-how to deal with the communities that it serves
7 and I would like to have the opportunity to demonstrate
8 the point, at a later date, with the media at large.
9 225 THE CHAIRMAN: So given that, how do
10 you think we should, again, collectively work to
11 overcome that problem?
12 226 Before you answer, it's true, I
13 guess, that when the Commission first established the
14 community channel policy back in the early seventies
15 that the idea of -- the spirit of it at least behind
16 the original establishment was that the cable operator
17 would provide the equipment, the community groups would
18 come into the studio, the cable operator would provide
19 training on how to use the equipment and so on, and
20 then, the community groups themselves would put the
21 programming together.
22 227 I think it's probably fair to say
23 that over the years, for a number of reasons, we have
24 gravitated away from that. It may well have been a
25 clash of personalities but I don't think it's unique
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1 here. I think it's true, right across the country,
2 that the cable operators have gradually become -- how
3 shall I say? -- more professional. That's not a
4 pejorative term, in this case, in terms of putting
5 together programming.
6 228 MS PARSONS: Well, yeah.
7 229 THE CHAIRMAN: But it's also true
8 that, in many cases, it's difficult to get people from
9 the community to come in and put together their
10 program. So for whatever reason, that has changed over
11 time.
12 230 Do you want to make a comment?
13 231 MS PARSONS: If I could just speak to
14 that. I don't recall that happening, that specific "We
15 decide what goes on so we're not the only show".
16 232 I know that when the regulations were
17 starting to change -- a lot of community cable stations
18 across the country are experiencing it now -- it's the
19 fact that they have to realize that in order to survive
20 as a community channel they have to become more of a
21 value-added service and in doing so, you have to instil
22 certain regulations in terms of programming,
23 programming development, et cetera.
24 233 If I recall specifically, there was
25 some problems around the actual, I guess, production
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1 elements or production value of programs that leave it
2 to the end of the program. As with every program,
3 there are reasons why and why not programs get
4 cancelled.
5 234 We still do multi-ethnic programming.
6 However, we don't necessarily do programming with the
7 Multicultural Halifax-Dartmouth forum. But we still do
8 it and we don't deny it based on the fact that it was
9 that association that decided not to do monthly
10 programming anymore and that was it. You can't cancel
11 programming without a justifiable reason. So I can't
12 remember -- I could look in my file but I don't think
13 it really happened that way.
14 235 On community television, just
15 listening to some of the conversations, I find that
16 community television could be a very viable tool to use
17 by numerous groups, specifically what you were speaking
18 to in terms of informing people in our community about
19 what is going on where they come from. That would
20 speak to relaxing the Foreign Content in community
21 television where only 40 per cent of our programming
22 can be of Foreign Content, in terms of actual radio
23 footage.
24 236 We wouldn't have the resources,
25 obviously, available to make it possible to produce
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1 programming from many varieties of ethnic
2 organizations. We just don't have the people power to
3 do it but that might be something to consider as well.
4 237 We do a Greek program right now, in
5 which they do do a newscast in Greek and they also
6 include in that some video from Greece. But it is only
7 a portion of the program. So there is the intensive
8 production requirements in terms of producing the
9 program. But that's something that -- just enlisting
10 might be a consideration that the Commission might
11 consider looking at that, the 40 per cent, the 40-60
12 split -- maybe consider relaxing it for programming --
13 238 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess the concern
14 that we might have -- and not to say we would be
15 opposed to it -- it's just a consideration on how one
16 would structure this sort of thing is that the more
17 relaxed you get on foreign programming for a community
18 channel, the less community-oriented you may become.
19 239 MS PARSONS: Well, I could speak
20 specifically to the communities that -- each
21 representative. For example, in Halifax, if you're
22 going to do an Arabic program, for example. There is a
23 huge population who would benefit from it. Maybe you
24 can speak to it that way, in terms of what the
25 demographics are in the communities that their channels
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1 are servicing.
2 240 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: What is
3 "foreign" as per the definition of the Commission? Is
4 languages in "foreign"? Would that apply in Toronto,
5 for example?
6 241 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I guess it could
7 be language or where the program is produced. I was
8 going to ask you about that actually, about what your
9 views would be about programming that was produced
10 elsewhere, targeted to various ethnic communities as
11 opposed to programming produced here in Canada. Do you
12 have any thoughts on that?
13 242 DR. ZAYID: Well, it's an easier way
14 of getting programs directed at people in these
15 communities. I think there ought to be an option like
16 this that is possible and obviously within certain
17 regulations.
18 243 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I think that
19 Canadian-produced programming should have a priority
20 over any other program. I think that the only reason
21 why we are around the table is because of Canada and
22 Canadians, not because (off mic) on Canada. We happen
23 to come from different parts of the world, many of us,
24 and what we want to do is to be a mirror that will
25 reflect our original culture, the language, where we're
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1 living, whichever it may be, to the rest of the common
2 people of the country. But it should not be that I
3 want to isolate myself and I would just become
4 Spanish-speaking only. That would be erroneous.
5 244 THE CHAIRMAN: That's a bit of a
6 problem, I think, that we have had in understanding
7 these issues, about to what extent do we take that
8 approach as opposed to providing programming from the
9 homeland, if you will, for various ethnic groups, just
10 for them to sort of keep in touch. But that speaks to
11 the question about providing either that programming on
12 domestic Canadian services or adding some of those
13 services.
14 245 We have what we call the eligible
15 satellite list where we allow the cable operators to
16 choose from a list of satellite signals. Largely, they
17 are American signals which end up being the specialty
18 services, you know, Arts and Entertainment and these.
19 But we also have a number of -- there's a Portuguese
20 channel and so on that are available for cable
21 operators to pick up should they choose to do so.
22 246 Now in many markets, the size of the
23 number of households in the community just may not
24 warrant them, given the relatively limited channel
25 capacity to add that service on the list. But there
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1 are a number of options there in terms of foreign
2 programming.
3 247 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: If I just might,
4 just before you speak -- this is an excellent program,
5 in my view, on the CBC, which is about the Pacific Rim,
6 and there is an excellent way of presenting the world
7 to Canadians who may be from that part of the world.
8 It gives them a quick update. It goes through many
9 countries in the 30 minutes that it usually lasts and
10 it informs you.
11 248 At first, I wanted to watch it
12 because of the name. To me, "In Pacific Rim" was all
13 about economics and money. I saw it once and I said,
14 well, this is not what the impression gives. But that
15 is a Canadian-produced show that gives a vision of the
16 world, that has footage from the rest of the world,
17 yet, it maintains its Canadian perspective. I'm sorry
18 for jumping ahead of you.
19 249 MS VAN LEEUWEN: It was interesting
20 when we discussed, at work, this third question about:
21 "Should there be a priority on
22 the development of Canadian...
23 rather than importing foreign
24 services?"
25 250 I guess one thing that the different
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1 immigrant populations bring to mainstream Canadian life
2 that is so stimulating is a fresh perspective and
3 providing mainstream Canadians with an opportunity to
4 question some of the things that we take for granted
5 about our own culture. At my workplace, we interpreted
6 "foreign" as "American". I must be talking about
7 things made in the United States.
8 251 THE CHAIRMAN: Actually, in this
9 context, we probably talk about everything but
10 American.
11 252 MS VAN LEEUWEN: But that is a point
12 I would like to make which relates back to the anecdote
13 that I related earlier.
14 253 THE CHAIRMAN: I am wondering too, in
15 the context of the other comment that you made about --
16 I think it was you that made the comment about the
17 hurricane in Honduras and how typically the commercial
18 or even the public broadcaster will cover that story on
19 the day or depending on how big the disaster is for
20 maybe the next few days and then it's gone. I wonder
21 if it's reasonable to expect that a Canadian
22 broadcaster would continue to cover that kind of a
23 story as opposed to picking up the Latin American
24 service or whatever it is --
25 254 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Well certainly,
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1 these are very general critiques that one could make.
2 I'm not sure, necessarily, looking at ethnocultural --
3 255 THE CHAIRMAN: M'hm. But I guess my
4 comment back is "Soon". I think your critique is a
5 good one, is how best would one go about resolving
6 taking up issues like that and having more thorough
7 coverage of -- I think in the case of the Arab
8 situation, we just don't get enough coverage, it seems
9 to me, about understanding --
10 256 DR. ZAYID: Yes, that's basically the
11 problem. I can't repeat it often enough: this
12 offensive stereotyping must stop.
13 257 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Just to give you
14 an idea, language-wise, you tell me, a news report that
15 does not have the war gone into a crusade. You tell me
16 what the crusades were about, if not killing Muslims
17 and taking land back from Muslims. I mentioned this to
18 a professor of journalism not long ago and he promised
19 never to use the word in that context ever again --
20 pardon the redundancy.
21 258 But that goes -- in the common
22 language, we accept these things as -- or is the
23 make-up something -- why use a religious symbol as a
24 source of where everybody goes to for business, for
25 entertainment, for whatever. Language has a lot to do
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1 with work.
2 259 But you were focusing mostly on news
3 items when you were saying about sourcing from other
4 countries.
5 260 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I was just using
6 it as an example because Arlene mentioned the issue
7 about people here who may be from Honduras would still
8 want to know what is happening back home, in terms of
9 the rebuilding and so on. Now, I don't know whether
10 it's reasonable to expect that the Canadian
11 broadcasters are going to continue to cover that story
12 when there are lots of other stories that are happening
13 in the meantime or whether, somehow or other, one plugs
14 into the news service from...
15 261 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I personally see
16 no problem with seeing news from other -- that
17 originate in other countries. We see BBC running now
18 through the CBC. They have a special broadcast
19 regularly -- not a special -- regular broadcasts that
20 we get to see a different perspective of the world,
21 which is not necessarily the Canadian perspective. Of
22 course, we have CNN there, at every moment.
23 262 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I was on a panel
24 recently -- I would say this is kind of an interesting
25 anecdote -- I was on a panel recently with the guy who
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1 runs CNN International and I said to him, "I find it
2 somewhat curious that in Canada we don't get CNN
3 International. We get the domestic CNN."
4 263 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: It's a domestic
5 market, yes.
6 264 THE CHAIRMAN: His comment was -- he
7 is actually originally from Britain and his comment was
8 that it would annoy him too because CNN is actually
9 finding that, as the CNN service goes throughout the
10 world, you cannot have a CNN International service.
11 You have to take CNN and tailor it to the market in
12 China, the market in India, the market -- probably not
13 even in South America -- the market in Brazil or...
14 265 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: They have, they
15 have.
16 266 THE CHAIRMAN: I know they do but
17 what he is finding now is if you really want to sell
18 that service in different markets, you have to tailor
19 the service to serve the needs of that market and you
20 can't just throw up a single CNN International
21 throughout the world and have it be popular in each
22 market as people simply can't relate to it unless it
23 addresses their concerns.
24 267 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: The CNN
25 experience, if it were applicable to Canada, I think
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1 that CBC International or whatever is left of it, it
2 could become a second -- I mean, CBC International
3 could become -- if it were to follow the steps of CNN,
4 it could perhaps go beyond what CNN has accomplished:
5 number one, accepted around the world is better of
6 Canada than of the United States; number two, the view
7 of Canadians are necessarily not as aggressive as the
8 Americans.
9 268 We are seen -- we as a Canadian
10 society -- more unbiased, as the Americans would be,
11 and we have all this multicultural ethno-minority
12 resources that we can tap from and give them the view
13 that they are expecting to see, but from here.
14 269 It was tried with the radio. Why
15 could it not be done with other resources, in all this
16 programming that I am suggesting, not necessarily the
17 news only? It could be cultural, general. What does a
18 Chilean fellow do in Halifax? Go back to Chile? I am
19 sure they will be interested. They would want to know
20 what is going on.
21 270 I saw a show on an American channel
22 of -- I think it was Peruvians around the world. It
23 was produced -- telling the story of different
24 Peruvians in Africa, in the States, et cetera, et
25 cetera. It was produced here and it had great
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1 acceptance, I understand, in Peru and in most
2 Spanish-speaking countries.
3 271 So I think that we could export this
4 cultural aspect of ours. Why we're not doing it I
5 don't know. Maybe we need more people pro-CBC and
6 other networks in those countries or in those regions
7 of the world so that we could have a better sense of
8 what we could be exporting.
9 272 THE CHAIRMAN: We may have covered
10 this off indirectly but the programming that's on radio
11 or television -- and television includes cable -- I
12 would take it, given from the discussion that we have
13 had, you would argue it should be mostly in English or
14 French, depending on the market, not in the language
15 that is...
16 273 DR. ZAYID: Well, I think it ought to
17 be a bit of both. For the young people, the idea of
18 maintaining a link to their ethnic language, I think,
19 would be useful and I think that would be -- but it
20 ought not to be the dominant component. I think a
21 component of a language, for example, in the Arabic
22 program would be very useful for people.
23 274 THE CHAIRMAN: But not dominant.
24 275 DR. ZAYID: No.
25 276 THE CHAIRMAN: Fiona, the work that
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1 you have been doing, is that largely English or is it
2 all English?
3 277 MS YORK: A lot is in English. There
4 are four shows. One is all Arabic -- two are all
5 Arabic; one is actually mostly English; and one is
6 mostly Arabic. Three of them are done by students --
7 so the younger people -- and some do actually feel
8 strongly that it's important to have a lot of Arabic
9 content and make a point of doing that.
10 278 So even the younger people, in some
11 cases, they feel that having the Arabic content is
12 important, but they also see the validity of the
13 English not only because they are seeing that other
14 people may not understand the Arabic but other people
15 that may not speak Arabic can get something from it.
16 279 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: There is one
17 danger with multi-language programming, in my view, and
18 that is if we do not screen the broadcasters through
19 their own peers, we may end up with people who are all
20 slang-talking being broadcasters and ultimately to be
21 the ones who are teaching our youth. But I think that
22 gives validity to the point we make in that any efforts
23 of this nature should be in conjunction, in
24 cooperation, and in partnership with the recognized
25 groups.
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1 280 So among many, you can determine the
2 ones who speak best or write better. I would hate to
3 see some of the people I know who speak Spanish write
4 for a newspaper in Spanish. I would just kill myself
5 looking at their spelling and the construction of their
6 language.
7 281 So if we are talking about
8 preservation and availability of the actual language,
9 it should be based on the fact that the people who are
10 commonly known to be the ones who speak it properly and
11 write it properly, are the ones who actually get to do
12 it.
13 282 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess that would be
14 the case of the broadcasters working with community
15 groups such as yours in order to try and establish that
16 because --
17 283 DR. ZAYID: Yes, and selecting,
18 obviously, appropriate programs in the proper language.
19 I think that's possible. That is not beyond achieving.
20 284 THE CHAIRMAN: Arlene.
21 285 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Fiona, may I ask
22 you, the so-called ethnic Arabic programs that you do:
23 Do you have a public education interest one?
24 286 MS YORK: It's more, I think, for the
25 groups themselves. I think usually the idea is more
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1 that it's people from the groups providing programming
2 for other people in their communities but there is just
3 the offshoot, I think. Even if it's not in English, I
4 think just the fact that people tune in and hear shows
5 that are in different languages makes -- you know,
6 there is sort of an acknowledgement or there is a
7 purpose in that too.
8 287 There are a few shows which are, I
9 think, like you have mentioned, shows where there is
10 just a variety of music from different cultures. So it
11 kind of helps.
12 288 I actually think that if there was
13 any change in the definition of ethnic programming --
14 that is now considered type e) but it's not included in
15 the 15 per cent maximum -- I think, if anything, that
16 should probably -- I think it's very useful and helpful
17 but I would think it should not be included because I
18 don't feel they see that as the same type of thing.
19 289 But our main purpose, I think, is to
20 provide an outlet for the community to provide
21 programming for other people in the community as
22 opposed to for public education, although that is
23 important and helpful as well.
24 290 MS VAN LEEUWEN: (Off mic...)
25 291 DR. ZAYID: But the programs in
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1 English are very useful educationally and they are
2 accessible to the community at large. I mean our
3 thoughts went into some of these programs and people
4 have commented about them and they are informational
5 and educational.
6 292 THE CHAIRMAN: Fiona, you expressed a
7 concern about having trouble meeting the Canadian
8 Content. Was that Canadian Content overall or was it
9 in the ethnic programs?
10 293 MS YORK: It was in the ethnic
11 programs.
12 294 THE CHAIRMAN: And what would you
13 suggest we do about that?
14 295 MS YORK: Well, I would think lower
15 it from the 7 per cent it is now but I don't have
16 another number to suggest. I don't necessarily mean to
17 go so far as to say it shouldn't exist at all but that
18 it should be lowered.
19 296 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this more a
20 question of interpretation of what it is because we
21 talked a little bit about -- it seems to me the views
22 around the table here have largely seemed to be that
23 the programming, for the most part, should be
24 programming that is produced here. So where do you
25 fall down on not meeting the --
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1 297 MS YORK: Well, the music that's
2 included for Canadian Content, it is often hard, I
3 would say, for an Arabic group to find music that fits
4 the Canadian Content that is also appropriate to the
5 show because there is not a lot of Arabic music that is
6 being produced here that they have access to, that they
7 can play to meet the 7 per cent, and if they do, they
8 are playing the same thing every week, just to make
9 their 7 per cent. So it makes it kind of hard and
10 there's no Polish music that can be found.
11 298 I guess another option would be
12 either to lower it or to provide an innate mechanism
13 where we can write to ask for an exception for a
14 certain show where it's just not possible for that
15 community. There might be somewhere -- it's like
16 fourth or fifth generation where it is impossible to
17 find things that are being produced in Canada that are
18 appropriate to that show.
19 299 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you think we even
20 should be concerned about it within ethnic programming?
21 300 MS YORK: Well, that's another
22 option. Maybe it could just not exist.
23 301 DR. ZAYID: Just out of ignorance, is
24 this foreign component related to the entire program or
25 just to the particular -- say we did an ethnic program,
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1 does that -- is there a requirement in that program
2 that so much be Canadian Content or is it the whole
3 program at CKDU, for example, or whatever?
4 302 MS YORK: Within a show, if it's an
5 hour and a half show, if it's an Arabic show, they
6 would have to be 7 per cent of the music played within
7 that show --
8 303 DR. ZAYID: Of that show.
9 304 MS YORK: -- that would have to be
10 Canadian Content.
11 305 THE CHAIRMAN: If it's a music show.
12 306 MS YORK: Yes.
13 307 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: So if we watch
14 TV, then they could lip sync and they would fulfil the
15 7 per cent, would they not?
16 --- Laughter / Rires
17 308 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: It is very
18 common. No, no, no, please. It's a very common
19 practice in the music. That's what they do. They
20 don't sing themselves. They lip sync. So TV is better
21 prepared to meet the quota than radio, from that
22 perspective -- musically speaking.
23 309 MS YORK: I guess so.
24 310 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Interesting.
25 311 THE CHAIRMAN: Dylan, are you still
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1 there?
2 312 MR. JONES: Yes.
3 313 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have any
4 comments on the discussion we have heard so far or do
5 you have any questions you would like to pose?
6 314 MR. JONES: Well, first of all, it's
7 not by show for Canadian -- for musical collections.
8 During the ethnic programming period for the broadcast
9 week, 7 per cent of the musical selections have to be
10 Canadian.
11 315 In any case, we are listening and it
12 has been a very interesting discussion and we are
13 taking it in and what not, but just for the record.
14 316 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have any
15 other -- of the issues that we have been trying to
16 cover off, both in the Public Notice or just in the
17 consultations here, are there any other issues you
18 would like to pose any questions on while we're here?
19 317 MR. BATSTONE: Well, one of the ideas
20 that the CRTC have been sort of discussing around has
21 been -- this is Geoff, by the way. I forgot to
22 identify myself --
23 318 THE CHAIRMAN: That's okay. I did.
24 319 MR. BATSTONE: -- has been some sort
25 of national register of musical selections which would
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1 facilitate a higher level of Canadian Content because
2 people in one area of Canada would perhaps be more
3 aware of what is being produced in other areas of
4 Canada but which might not be available on a national
5 basis. I wondered if maybe anybody had any comments
6 about that.
7 320 Is it the lack of local availability
8 of ethnic musical selection or is it not knowing about
9 Canadian ethnic musical selections, given that a lot of
10 them are locally sourced? I wonder if Fiona could
11 comment on that.
12 321 MS YORK: Do you mean are we having
13 trouble finding locally produced music that fits or
14 Canadian?
15 322 MR. BATSTONE: No, what I mean is, is
16 the difficulty that you can't -- is the issue one of
17 the availability of Canadian ethnic music or is it just
18 sort of finding it?
19 323 MS YORK: I think it's both. I would
20 say it's both because the programmers are generally
21 pretty knowledgeable about the material and we
22 encourage them as well if they know of something that
23 would fit on their show to let us know so we can try to
24 get that for them and often it's just not -- either
25 way, it can't be found and it's not known to exist.
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1 324 MR. BATSTONE: Well, in the context
2 of the discussion about other types of programming and
3 finding the appropriate balance between Canadian
4 Content and Foreign Content, do some of those issues
5 apply in the context of music that we -- should the
6 Commission be concerned and, indeed, others -- the
7 David Colville "we" -- should we be concerned about
8 promoting and encouraging the ethnic musical industry
9 in Canada? Is it important to promote knowledge about
10 the distribution of, indeed, the production of Canadian
11 ethnic music?
12 325 MS YORK: I think that would be
13 helpful but I think that putting a minimum percentage
14 on, whether it's across the board or on a certain show,
15 isn't necessarily the way to do it because I think then
16 it's just an issue of acceptability and people being
17 intimidated about doing a show because they can't find
18 that material.
19 326 THE CHAIRMAN: How important do you
20 think music is relative to other types of programming
21 that we might have addressing a lot of these concerns?
22 327 DR. ZAYID: I would consider it's
23 only a component and not the most important component.
24 328 THE CHAIRMAN: Relatively minor?
25 329 DR. ZAYID: Yes, I would say so.
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1 330 THE CHAIRMAN: Arlene.
2 331 MS VAN LEEUWEN: That's not what was
3 expressed certainly by my co-workers. They were
4 concerned with news coverage, just keeping in touch
5 with their country, what is happening in their country.
6 332 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Would that be
7 because they are concentrating -- are they going to the
8 media to obtain news rather than for entertainment
9 only?
10 333 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Yes.
11 334 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I remember I
12 came packed with LPs, when I came to Canada in 78, to
13 listen to my music. I anticipated I would not be able
14 to find it here but I think the university reality will
15 be far different from that of -- that music will be an
16 important component. I know from two teenagers who are
17 going to university who expressed a big desire for
18 music.
19 335 MS YORK: I would say just given the
20 stations where I have worked and what I have seen, I
21 think that a lot of the cultural shows are not
22 necessarily reflecting university students. It's
23 often -- I have seen a total diversity in age groups of
24 the people sitting together and I think that the
25 reason -- all of the ones I have seen pretty much fit
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1 partly as they can impart spoken words.
2 336 I think it's just because if there is
3 going to be, for instance, an Asian show on a station,
4 it's most likely the only Asian show in that city. So
5 they are going to have -- they have to do everything in
6 that show. So they have to do music and they have to
7 do spoken words. So it ends up that they play music
8 and they have news and information because there is
9 just no other outlet. So they have to cover
10 everything.
11 337 Now, I don't -- this is a question.
12 I'm not sure if this is the case. If a show -- would a
13 show like that that has both music and spoken word be
14 considered -- say if it was 50 per cent music and 50
15 per cent spoken word, could it fit under a different
16 category where it wasn't a music show so there was no
17 minimum Can Con?
18 338 If they played 40 per cent music and
19 the rest was spoken word, if there is a mechanism -- if
20 it doesn't already exist, I'm not sure -- if there is a
21 mechanism where you could say, "Well, this is a
22 cultural show. We just need our music -- no spoken
23 word."
24 339 Therefore, they have no Can Con
25 quotient, whereas if it was an Arabic show, if we had
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1 unlimited numbers of Arabic shows, we could have one
2 that is all devoted to music. That could be the music
3 cultural show and that could have a minimum Can Con
4 percentage but the other ones, or in cases where
5 there's only one show for a certain group, it would be
6 considered exempt because they're not primarily music
7 and have no Can Con requirement, is that --
8 340 THE CHAIRMAN: My easy answer to that
9 is that sounds like an interesting proposal. Dylan, do
10 you want to comment on that?
11 341 MR. JONES: I like your answer.
12 --- Laughter / Rires
13 342 MR. JONES: I'm thinking of one other
14 question and it's not specific to radio, although it
15 arises from the point about CHIN's distribution in
16 Halifax. We have been talking, in discussion, about
17 the balance between Canadian national programming and
18 foreign programming.
19 343 Now, one of the things that is
20 obvious about CHIN being distributed in the Halifax
21 region is it raises the question of the balance
22 between -- that's the case where you have, in Toronto,
23 (off mic) being available in a region. How important
24 is that?
25 344 Is it essential that there be local
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1 production in Halifax relating to the community in
2 Halifax? Where is the balance there in terms of -- is
3 there a great need for ethnic programming to be
4 regionally produced? That relates also to issues about
5 the place of specialties and that type of thing.
6 345 DR. ZAYID: I wouldn't have thought
7 so. I think the essence of it is, as long as it's a
8 program of interest to the ethnic community, it doesn't
9 matter where it is produced. I don't think the
10 emphasis is that it has to be produced locally.
11 346 Obviously, on issues about local
12 content, like the CKDU does, programs related to the
13 community, that obviously needs to be generated
14 locally, but not all the programs.
15 347 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: An ideal
16 situation, I think, would be -- and maybe it's too
17 radical -- but the same way you get the main networks
18 to have the national news or the national programs and
19 you have the regional programming. Why put in radio
20 stations, such as CHIN or whichever, right here? Have
21 a local web, say in CKDU, and CKDU will beam up 30
22 minutes a week or 2 hours a week of locally produced
23 programming to satisfy the local needs and just (off
24 mic) that national aspect but be carried through the
25 CHIN network. It doesn't have to be one with the
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1 exclusion of the other. The market is not that large
2 here to have competition.
3 348 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, in fact, the
4 market is not. With the exception of the programming
5 that CKDU does, the market is not even large enough for
6 us to sustain an ethnic station here, of any sort --
7 well, except for the programming that CKDU does.
8 349 So I guess, Dylan, to answer your
9 question then, what I'm hearing here is having CHIN
10 brought in from Toronto, even if a lot of its
11 programming tends to reflect the concerns of the
12 Toronto community and probably is talking about how
13 they are not able to clear the snow off some of the
14 streets there -- and by the way, we have no snow
15 here -- that that would be better than having no ethnic
16 programming here or it could well supplement the
17 programming that there is.
18 350 DR. ZAYID: I think that's true.
19 351 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Yes, Vision TV
20 does exactly the same. They have regional producers
21 and you go to them. Then, if you want a program
22 produced here to be put on the main network, you
23 convince them and it goes.
24 352 THE CHAIRMAN: Actually, I'm not
25 aware that -- notwithstanding what Juan Carlos said, I
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1 would have guessed that CHIN was available off of
2 CANCOM and, therefore, would be available on the
3 smaller cable systems to pick up the CANCOM service.
4 But I'm not aware that any of the larger cable stations
5 take the radio services off of CANCOM and offer them in
6 the communities.
7 353 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Maybe you can
8 enlighten us as to what CANCOM is.
9 354 THE CHAIRMAN: CANCOM is Canadian
10 Satellite Communications, which is a satellite
11 distributor of television signals but regionally
12 licensed largely to distribute those to smaller and
13 more remote communities. But also it offers a
14 competitive alternative to LAN distribution systems for
15 some of the U.S. signals and some other distant
16 Canadian signals. They do offer a package of radio
17 program services as well.
18 355 So depending on what our current rule
19 is -- I don't know even, Dylan, whether our current
20 rule prohibits it. My understanding is it probably
21 just doesn't even address it as to whether or not --
22 and I don't know whether David would have a comment on
23 that about whether the CAB would have concerns about
24 ethnic stations being offered on cable systems, ethnic
25 stations that would be licensed in Toronto. Certainly,
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1 they wouldn't be taking any commercial advertising out
2 of the market here. But I think probably you don't
3 want to make a comment right now.
4 356 MR. MacLEAN: It's certainly a touchy
5 issue (off mic) in that also present would be
6 established in that particular (off mic).
7 357 MR. JONES: I actually just don't
8 know what the situation is on the distribution of
9 Canadian ethnic audio signals in the Atlantic
10 provinces. I wouldn't add anything further to that.
11 358 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I think it's an
12 issue worth considering anyway, both the pros and the
13 cons that there may be.
14 359 Does anybody have anything else they
15 want to raise?
16 360 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Just an add-on
17 to that note that no preference should be given to
18 national networks to the detriment of local possible
19 ventures, that whatever local venture may be possible
20 that they be given preference and pampering so that
21 they can evolve rather than because the other ones are
22 established and they are here already, let's keep them
23 and forget the other ones.
24 361 MR. RODGER: Should a national one be
25 taken off if there was a local one that you liked?
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1 362 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: That is an
2 interesting proposition. My brother-in-law might want
3 to kill me but I think I would prefer that.
4 363 MR. JONES: Just to clarify, there
5 is, under the Broadcasting Distribution Regulations, no
6 impediment to distribution -- undertaking distributing
7 no distant audio Canadian signal. What we're not sure
8 of is exactly who is being distributed where.
9 364 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I agree. I'm not
10 aware of anything in the Regs that says you cannot do
11 this. I'm just not aware of anybody doing it in any of
12 the major centres.
13 365 Is there anything else?
14 366 Arlene.
15 367 Fiona.
16 368 MS YORK: I had a couple of things
17 just on what you were saying there. I think that I
18 would definitely echo that because I wasn't quite sure
19 what your suggestion was about CHIN moving to CKDU, but
20 if your suggestion was that if there was some way of
21 carrying a brief portion of CHIN programming on CKDU, I
22 think that even if that was a possibility, we would
23 probably hesitate to even do that just because it is
24 national and we really focus on local programming. We
25 probably would just think, "This is getting airing in a
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1 lot of other places. It's not appropriate for us to
2 carry that." We would rather try to produce our own
3 programming that meets the same needs.
4 369 The other thing is the last part of
5 the discussion was about a lot of sort of different,
6 potential services like having a special ethnic
7 station, a community station or having cable stations
8 and things like that. I think those are fine ideas but
9 I just think that, in a lot of ways, that is just
10 continuing the marginalization of ethnic programming
11 groups.
12 370 If you have to go searching for some
13 little 50-watt station or some ethnic broadcast you
14 never hear about, the whole point is that you are
15 trying to raise awareness and make it part of the
16 mainstream, something that is easy and accessible to
17 get.
18 371 I think if we are fighting to
19 increase the number of hours we can do on a tiny
20 station or find a cable station or sub-carriers or
21 whatever, it's just not meeting the ideas that -- you
22 were saying public education, too, is really important,
23 that people have to be able to see the faces on the CBC
24 on the morning show and see them on TV and that
25 affirmative action is really helpful in those places
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1 because everyone is seeing that. It's not just being
2 set aside for some special station that -- you know,
3 you might look for it and you might look for it but a
4 lot of other people aren't going to look for and aren't
5 going to see those things.
6 372 So it's totally (off mic) to the
7 public education aspect and continues the
8 marginalization and limits the accessibility and takes
9 the responsibility away from commercial stations, which
10 is what they should be having in the first place.
11 373 THE CHAIRMAN: Look, I don't disagree
12 with anything you have said. I think all we are
13 looking at, with the case of CHIN, for example, would
14 be typically, in some of the more larger centres, we
15 license ethnic radio stations. Part of the conditions
16 that we have with them because largely, they will come
17 forward and say, "There is this huge Chinese community
18 or Indian community in our area we think we can provide
19 service to." But as part of their conditions, we
20 generally make them provide service in other languages
21 as well.
22 374 So if, for example, CKDU is only able
23 to, let's say, serve four different groups, language
24 groups, ethnic groups, here in Halifax, but CHIN is
25 serving 18, you could bring CHIN in on cable. Anybody
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1 who has cable television could get the CHIN radio
2 service and have access to all those other languages
3 that may serve different pockets of the community here
4 in Halifax, which may never be large enough to provide
5 a service on their own because of the relative make-up.
6 Any one is so small -- in fact, altogether, it may be
7 so small, it isn't evident that you would be able to
8 have enough put together to have an ethnic station that
9 could survive in this market. So that was that but
10 that shouldn't take away from the comments about trying
11 to put a more pluralistic face on conventional
12 broadcasting.
13 375 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: If I just may
14 clarify, trying a little bit of a better English on my
15 part. The idea was completely the opposite: for CKDU
16 to be able to send programming through CHIN the same
17 way that local webs are able to send information
18 through the networks. We have a good quality program
19 show. Why not from the East Coast to all across Canada
20 through the established channel? It was ethnic and not
21 (off mic).
22 376 THE CHAIRMAN: Geoff or Dylan, is
23 anybody talking about this sort of idea, of maybe sort
24 of more networking -- and I use that in both senses of
25 the word -- in order to provide sort of more of a
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1 national face, if you will, in terms of dealing with
2 some of these issues?
3 377 MR. JONES: I'm just going to clarify
4 one thing. We have been using CHIN as an example.
5 CHIN is an over-the-air conventional broadcaster in
6 Toronto and its mandate is to serve the Toronto market.
7 It's not a national -- it's not licensed as sort of a
8 national force of radio ethnic programming for the
9 country.
10 378 Having said that --
11 379 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but Dylan,
12 everybody who lives in Toronto believes it's national.
13 380 MR. JONES: We're talking about a
14 particular licensee, but the larger idea -- sort of
15 leaving CHIN out of the picture -- the larger idea of a
16 radio network, sort of a radio network model, where you
17 have sort of national radio programming and maybe local
18 (off mic) is a really fascinating proposal.
19 381 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, maybe we can
20 keep that thought and maybe something can gel around
21 this idea.
22 382 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: (Off mic...)
23 383 THE CHAIRMAN: Juan Carlos actually
24 wants to bring the business here to compete against his
25 brother, that's what it's all about.
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1 --- Laughter / Rires
2 384 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Well, when I was
3 asked to put the thinking cap on, I really did. Do you
4 see any negative -- not negative -- any -- let me
5 restart here. I'm thinking in Spanish first.
6 385 Would the concept of an ethnic
7 minority-oriented programming advisory committee to the
8 CRTC in each major centre of the country be something
9 that you would be warm to the idea of?
10 386 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. Yes. Yes,
11 absolutely.
12 387 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I'm not talking
13 only the people from other countries and other
14 cultures. We have Fiona, for example. She is running
15 the reality of CKDU radio. She knows exactly what she
16 is talking about. It doesn't have to be
17 immigrant-based only but people who are in the crux of
18 the matter of ethnic minorities.
19 388 THE CHAIRMAN: And that could be
20 advising on ethnic issues on ethnic stations or ethnic
21 issues or lack thereof on conventional --
22 389 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: In situations
23 such as the bad portrayals in the news world, it could
24 be brought up more directly and more easily through
25 this council right to whatever body, whether it is the
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1 CRTC or the media at large --
2 390 DR. ZAYID: Some advisory committee
3 of some --
4 391 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: Yes.
5 392 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. And perhaps even
6 working together with CAB and the CBC instead of --
7 otherwise so we can get the education process going on.
8 393 MS VAN LEEUWEN: May I ask --
9 394 THE CHAIRMAN: Arlene.
10 395 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Is there a similar
11 type of body for, for example, native broadcasting?
12 How does that operate? Is it a separate department?
13 396 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean, is there an
14 advisory body for --
15 397 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Yes, such as --
16 398 THE CHAIRMAN: Not really. Not that
17 I'm aware of. Dylan or Geoff? I mean we work with the
18 native community. We have licensed Northern Native
19 Television and they have applied for a licence to have
20 their service carried in the south. In fact, our
21 decision should be out shortly on that. There is no --
22 399 MS VAN LEEUWEN: Direct analogy.
23 400 THE CHAIRMAN: -- no formal advisory
24 committee that I'm aware of.
25 401 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: That's a healthy
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1 idea, I think.
2 402 THE CHAIRMAN: It's a good idea.
3 403 Taking good notes, Dylan?
4 404 MR. JONES: Yes, sir.
5 405 THE CHAIRMAN: Anything else?
6 406 Do any of you observers have any
7 comments they want to make?
8 407 MR. MacLEAN: I should say that we
9 should highlight the hearings of the Canadian Broadcast
10 Standards Council, which deal with many of the issues
11 that have been raised here today with regard to,
12 certainly, sensitizing broadcasters in English or
13 French to a lot of the concerns that may be raised with
14 group portrayals or stereotyping of various groups.
15 408 I do know -- I'm just putting
16 forward, as a suggestion, that concerns of the nature
17 that you are raising, if they are forwarded to the
18 Canadian Broadcast Standards Council, they are dealt
19 with on a review process and certainly all of the
20 broadcasters are made aware of the decisions that come
21 out of these considerations as very, very helpful as a
22 sensitizing issue for the non-ethnic broadcasters,
23 let's put it that way. That might be something that
24 you would want to consider when you do encounter these
25 matters.
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1 409 It's not only -- the CBC has the
2 mechanism to deal with these problems and the private
3 broadcast sector has (off mic).
4 410 THE CHAIRMAN: David, I thought that
5 largely that's individual-specific complaint-driven?
6 411 MR. MacLEAN: Yes.
7 412 THE CHAIRMAN: So if there is a
8 specific complaint about a specific story being biased,
9 then the CBSC, Broadcast Standards Council -- well,
10 largely, the individual station. Then if it doesn't
11 handle that complaint with satisfaction, then it goes
12 to the Council and is dealt with there.
13 413 I guess the proposal here -- which I
14 think is good and certainly, from our point of view, we
15 appreciate the work that the Council is doing. But I
16 guess we're talking here largely of a more general
17 sensitizing of dealing with these issues and that maybe
18 this sort of advisory kind of council that might
19 encompass more than just the Commission I'm working
20 with -- the broadcasters...
21 414 DR. ZAYID: This is just to
22 communicate this to whom?
23 415 MR. MacLEAN: To the Canadian
24 Broadcast Standards Council. They are in Ottawa. All
25 licensees subscribe, as a condition of licence, to the
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1 Standards Council. Generally speaking, if for
2 instance, there was a portrayal as you described in a
3 particular newscast, with the newspaper, you can file a
4 complaint with the Press Council. With the
5 broadcasters --
6 416 DR. ZAYID: I have done that many
7 times.
8 417 MR. MacLEAN: You can file a
9 complaint with the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council
10 that you object to this because it's stereotyping in a
11 negative fashion. These complaints are dealt with by
12 the Broadcast Standards Council.
13 418 We just have a constant flow of
14 information coming out of the Broadcast Standards
15 Council to us as broadcasters, certainly making us
16 aware about number of things: a) that these are issues
17 that may not apply in our market but we are certainly
18 sensitized to it; and secondly, it's a constant
19 education process, I think, for the broadcasters in the
20 sense that they realize that these things that they
21 might have been just doing as a matter of common
22 experience may be offensive. We tend to discuss this
23 with our staff on an ongoing basis. So that vehicle is
24 there.
25 419 DR. ZAYID: Will the content of the
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1 submissions that we made in the discussions we made
2 today reach your group?
3 420 MR. MacLEAN: Oh, yes.
4 421 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, this is all
5 public information.
6 422 MR. MacLEAN: I understand that
7 transcripts will be prepared and will be posted -- of
8 the session today -- on the Internet. Am I correct?
9 423 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
10 424 MR. CANALES-LEYTON: I think the
11 information you provided is very valuable. However,
12 the voice of one individual, as loud as it may be, will
13 never be as effective or make as large as an impression
14 as the common voice of a group of people who are
15 concerned with the same situation. I think that would
16 give validity to sort of a grouping or association of
17 individuals with concerns about broadcasting, not
18 necessarily to be lobbying but to be analyzing the
19 reality of their own region. I think that is the
20 validity of the concept. Then, of course, the
21 technicalities could be dealt with by the CRTC people
22 at large.
23 425 DR. ZAYID: Do you have an address
24 for your study you mentioned today?
25 426 MR. MacLEAN: We have that.
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1 427 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I want to thank
2 you all very much. I think we have had a good
3 discussion of the issues and this will all be helpful.
4 428 I think we have had some good
5 suggestions here today and a good discussion of the
6 issues but also some specific suggestions about how we
7 might go forward with the policies on specific issues
8 but some broader more general issues that I think would
9 be effective as well.
10 429 So we will be putting this together
11 with the information that we are hearing at the other
12 regional consultations plus the written information. I
13 think Brien has copies of the Public Notice for those
14 of you who didn't have a copy. So we welcome any
15 additional comments you might have.
16 430 MR. BATSTONE: It's Geoff again.
17 Just to maybe emphasize on that point. Written
18 comments can be filed through March 4th. So anybody
19 who wants to supplement their comments in that way, we
20 would certainly welcome that.
21 431 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, with this, I
22 think I will declare this conversation ended.
23 432 Thank you all very much.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1800 /
25 L'audience se termine à 1800
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